A while back a Catholic Priest contacted me through the original incarnation of Aussielicious via email and since then we’ve had a bit of an ongoing dialog about sexuality, religion and life in general. Father X is in his 50’s. He was kind enough to agree to do this interview for us.
Which came first your calling to the priesthood or realising you were gay?
Being gay – something I knew from a young age, say mid-grade school years.
How do you reconcile your loyalty to the Catholic Church with your sexuality and their stance on homosexuality?
In a sense, there’s nothing to reconcile. Being homosexual is not a choice [for most people]; being straight is also not a choice; it’s how we are as people. And God, I believe is a God of love, hence love is capable in all people. God loves all people. What the Church [and most people] would not want are abusive relationships, which happen in all sectors of society. We have a responsibility to be people of love, people who have and show respect for ourselves and others. As for how that love is expressed … be it sexually or otherwise, that will change over the years – and has changed. As we as a human race grow in our understanding of the world, then so will our morals and behaviour. The human ovum was not discovered until 1827 – less than 200 years ago, science discovered how babies came about! Science previously had said things like, “If a man has too much sex, he can turn into a woman.” Though several men tried, none were successful. We look back at that now and can laugh – our behaviour has changed, but the value of love and respect remains.
When you first broke your vow of abstinence, did you feel any guilt about it?
The “Catholic guilt” for some is a reality … when I first stole something, when I was seven years old, I thought a bolt of lighting would strike me down. The God of the Jesus [as shown in the Gospels] is a God of love, healing and peace. A total absence of guilt is not a good thing – similarly, the inability to feel physical pain is not a good thing. What must be asked is whether the guilt is reasonable or based on “superstition” or false morality.
Would you agree that it’s not a natural human state to be celibate?
Many people choose to be celibate – some are celibate, but not by choice! Many choose to marry or have other types of intimate relationships. A natural human state is to be intimate – which bespeaks love. Some love is celibate; most is not. Being celibate is certainly not for everyone. But it is not unnatural – and there is no connection with celibacy and pedophilia. Most pedophiles are in married situations.
Do you think younger generations are becoming more and more sceptical about organised religion?
Yes – especially after corruption and sexual abuse allegations and revelations. However, the traditional organized religions are being replaced, alas, by some fundamentalist sects. True religion allows freedom. I can understand young people branching away from organized religion.
How does a gay priest go about having sexual contact?
Like a porcupine having sex – very carefully. Some, no doubt, would go to bath houses and the like. No doubt this can be an attempt to satisfy a physical urge. However, as with everyone, intimacy and love are what we all seek. And not all sexual contacts provide intimacy or love.
With a presumably thorough knowledge of the bible, what does it really say about homosexuality?
This is a complex questions, and certainly not simplistic as some fundamentalists would try to have us believe. One such preacher quoted the gospel to a gay young man, “If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off.” The New Testament also tells women to be quiet in church and to cover their heads! Ridiculous to literally apply what was said in a totally different culture 2000 years ago to the modern world. What is said is against abusive or manipulative or demeaning others. Certainly the Bible speaks against “unnatural” acts. Spilling of a man’s “seed” was seen as unnatural – of course this was well before the human ovum was discovered. Didn’t science once believe that masturbation could send you blind?! The value behind what is in the Bible remains true – our sexuality is for others, not just for our own hedonistic pleasure. There is more to life than hedonistic pleasure – more to life than being doped out and dancing with a chair or treating another person as a sexual object. Homosexuality is not yet understood by the sciences. The Bible must be read in that light, trying to see the values that lie beneath it – values that are worthwhile.
In your adulthood you’ve seen homosexuality go from being illegal to relatively celebrated with things like Pride marches and Mardi Gras. Do you think we’ll ever see true equality?
As equal as the rich and the poor. As equal as the United States ’ law and the Geneva Convention on torture. As equal as AIDS is treated in Africa and the United States. As fair as the elections are in totalitarian nations. The law changes are excellent. The sexual discrimination Acts are excellent. Changing peoples’ attitudes – that’s different and is taking years. But we are people of hope.
I love this interview. That you so much for sharing it with us.
I picked up a book a few years ago: What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality. Not a long read, but a serious read as the author goes through a lot of biblical texts and goes to the meaning of the original language (as opposed to the meaning of the English translation) and then also offers a meaning of the text in the context of the culture at the time. I can’t say that it provided a total reconciliation between Christianity and homosexuality, however it certainly showed that the Bible offered up an alternative, realistic interpretation. My feelings on the interview are that this man has shown the wrestling with a faith which does provide a comfort and strength for many, inluding himself,yet its formal expression in organised religion denies his reality and the reality of many others. Thanks Brenton for putting up some honest dialogue on an awkward subject.
A priest-friend of mine once said that as long as we don’t hurt one another, love of any kind is acceptable. We are meant to “love one another”, and it doesn’t matter who the “other” is. Hearing him say that has eased my mind considerably, as to what I consider a ‘confessable’ sin, and what is not.
Good article Brenton. Thanks. Good timing considering today is Palm Sunday, the beginning of Holy Week.
John from PA
What a pity - I’m grateful as I didn’t grow up in a religious family. This is what I wanna say to all Christian & Muslim MOs, stop finding meaning in that thousand-year-old book of yours. Stop feeling that you need acceptance from some imaginary figure. Human are not that special who need a place to go to when s/he dies; if that’s so all animals which died under human knife should all be allowed into the so-called heaven. If at all, human is a kind of animal that has experienced brain mutation when we started to develop more usage for our brain.
Let religion go and it’ll not bug you anymore. If gods were all that mighty, they would have told you, in that silly book, what to do for global warming, exploding population and what punishment you would get for destroying the earth. And if there can be new testaments, the homosexual priests should WRITE one now. It’s sadly disappointing if the Almighty hasn’t heard your cry and come to your side to offer comfort.
Thank yu so much Brenton for posting this interview with the priest. For those people who grew up in any sort of religious atmosphere and later in life have trouble reconciling things with things they were raised to believe, it can be a disheartening endeavor sometimes. The questions that Alfred raises show that he in fact didn’t grow up in a religious environment - that’s not a judgement, just pointing out that what he said is true. The part he’s missing is that for those of us who were brought up that way, our beliefs are just as instilled in us as his are in him. To shrug it off and say, “oh well” doesn’t really compute within most of us.
its the same as a married man who indulges in flings does that suggest trust ,fidelity . loyalty ? Lots of men and women are celibate at different times in their lives for different reasons . Personally i think there is something noble about someone struggling with conflicting situations rather than saying God is love therfore hes indifferent to what i get up to . After all of the scandals in the catholic church its about time those who chose to be part of it live it, thats why people are put off religion such hypocrisy i want old ladies on a sunday to think im a link to the supernatural but when ive got my free time and priests have more than working people with familes im going to check out some porn , yawn . Sorry Brenton for criticism
And Christ said if you love me keep your commandments , anyone who has to care for others has to be careful about their affections , teachers , doctors would all look to avoid compromising their posistion and this brings some sacrifices into your private lives . The grass always looks greener on the other side , i know loads of priests all i presume to be gay but keeping to their chosen vows the hard working ones are too busy to get too caught up failing in their committment the lazy ones are full of self pity and are envious of my freedom , as if its so amazing to prop up a bar in Canal street in Manchester . One lesson ive learned in life is that youve got to take responsibility for your choices , anyway rant over love your site and if i wasnt so serious id leave you a horny message regards LJ
Nice to see something of substance here! Congrats!
i was a catholic priest for many years myself, ordained in 1975. makes me and your correspondent about the same age. most of my priesthood was spent fighting the church on this very issue. i wrote my doctoral thesis: Gay Catholic Priests; A Study of Cognitive and Affective Dissonance, in 1981. the international firestorm that followed destroyed my public ministry. the lies and deception, the prevarication, the monumental toll the double life engenders in the gay priest destroy all but the strongest. and even they tend to be emotionally crippled by the duplicity. the church eats its young rather than change. it’s frightful.
the church’s teaching on same sex attraction is different from the rule on celibacy for the clergy. The Church could allow married men to be ordained but not priests to marry which is the case in the eastern churches where a married priest becomes celibate if his wife dies , some would argue that a gay man is not making as much of a sacrifice as biologically hes not going to have a family of his own and a lot of gay priests act more like bachelors with sexual frustration rather than servants of the needy . The moral teaching is not about selective passages in scripture but in the purpose of life , natural law. Camus argued that there is no purpose and that humans spend their lives trying to make one and in turn cause misery, the catholic tradition not surprisngly says that God is at the begginning and end of everything and that there is a purpose , in sex there are two purposes union and the potential for life so any form of sexual practice that denies this is , is falling short. To be a sin it has to be freely chosen and i suppose that the medieval theologians would have only experienced gay sex within all male environments like monasteries, prisons so they thought it was something that could be resisted . The idea of choice is difficult to defend today but its impication is that there are not gay men because a person cannot be wholly defined as an action and i think there is more to people than just what they do with their willies. I try to follow the Church,s guidence but i suppose i chose a middle path between the two extremes , to be honest i wish i had been more chaste when younger because of the various STIs that i picked up along the way .